Template talk:Individualism sidebar

I am proposing this template be deleted, because it is biased and loaded. it is unfair to assume and imply that "individualism" is purely a pro capitalist phenomenon, just as been attempted with the term "libertarian". terms such as "individualism" and "egoism" apply to people who have supported both socialism and capitalism, as does the idea of a preference for "liberty", and define something very deep to human desire in much of ther western world. I am going to have to put my foot down on this and say that right wing attempts to both whitewash the history of right wing behavior, economics, authoritarianism, etc on wikipedia, plus attempts to make terms like "individualism" "egoism" and "liberty" as well as "liberal" always point to capitalist preference are unfounded.. for every person who has used these terms in the defense of capitalism there have been those who have used the terms in opposition to it. To put words in our mouths, and labels on our brains, within wikipedia, by insisting these terms only point to one type of economic behavior is patently absurd, and unfair.. as is it also absurd and unfair to only use quotes biased toward one particular point of view, and sneakily and weai8ly leave out quotes that point to the opposite point of view. Radical Mallard Feb 23, 2009 7:39 PM

There is no claim that capitalism is the only individualist philosophy. It's one of many individualist-related ideas in the sidebar. And there is no denying that capitalism is individualist. Private property is individualist. It's not collectivist. Jadabocho (talk) 02:27, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is simply not true. you have set up a false dichotamy. Individualism is a philosophical tendency and a personal inclination. capitalism and socialism are economic arrangements. The fact that many socialists and collectivists are and have been individualists underlies the fact that opposing capitalism does not exclude individualism. You are trying to force it so everyone HAS to accept your capitalist version of individualism, just as you do the same with libertarianism and many other terms. It has gotten simply ridiculous. Radical Mallard Feb 23, 2009 10:56 PM

Is individualism even enough of a unified philosophy continuum to have its own template? Zazaban (talk) 22:05, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a philosophy. It's a category of philosophies and ideas. Some philosophies are individualist, and some, like socialism, are collectivist. Jadabocho (talk) 23:26, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, but is it enough of a unified ideal that it deserves its own template? There is no 'collectivist' template. Zazaban (talk) 00:44, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is. And I think it's very useful to the reader to have a sidebar to be able to explore all the individualist ideas and individualist thinkers. I'm open to making a collectivism template. Jadabocho (talk) 01:04, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

THe claim that socialist is anti-individualist is completley outlandish. Promoting solidarity and the collective good is in no way connected to supressing the individual!--85.227.247.131 (talk) 01:13, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Individualism is to the individual as socialism is to the social. I agree that socialism isn't necessarily suppressing to the individual. It's just that socialism emphasis concern for the social whereas individualism emphasis concern for the individual. Jadabocho (talk) 01:22, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Individualism is clearly about a type of thinking where the interests of the self are of primary interest. It doesn't take a genius to see that this means some individualists, in an individualistic society (that is, any society that values individualism - there are still numerous religious and dictatorial societies that do not) will favor capitalistic solutions, and others will favor socialistic ones. That people are forced to behave in a capitalist way because everything has a price put on it says nothing about how many socialists (however individualistic we may all be) there really are, since like sexuality, a persons circumstances and what really benefits them (or what they believe benefits them) can only truly be known to them and possibly you only if they tell you... you have to walk in a man's shoes to see things his way. Nobody is denying that there are capitalist individualists. But to deny there are socialist ones is flat out wrong. This also explains why the anarchist individualists of old (and the modern ones who respect them like Joe Peacott or Fred Woodworth) would be capitalists one day and socialists the next. If you are a more "pure" individualist (that is that you find more joy in seeing people being happy by following their bliss than their bliss being some specific thing), and you find that capitalist behavior is hurting people, you may denounce it. And if socialist behavior is hurting people, you may denounce that. You might even say today you are a socialist just to piss off the capitalists you dislike, and tomorrow, say you are a capitalist because the socialist party is run by idiots. In Britain in the early 1800's, what kind of person would honestly say capitalism was glorious? And in Hungary in the late 1950's, what kind of person would honestly say socialism was glorious? You have to take these kinds of things into account. Radical Mallard Feb 25, 2009, 7:48 PM EST